Become a fan of Slashdot on Facebook
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
Not sure what you meant here. Online sales by independent stores will also require a minimum of 3 euros shipping fees for orders below 35 euros. Which should not be a problem given anyone who really reflects shipping fees would pay more than 3 euros to ship books.
I'm the first to watch out for unintended consequences, and there could be some hidden here, but your comment seems way too short to be useful.
So stores tgat lost 7 euros per sale will now only lose 4 euros?
The answer is free postal delivery for local bookshops, take the shipping cost off the table. Forcing consumers to pay a "sin tax" for buying from Amazon only enriches Amazon.
There is no such thing as "free".
Agreed it depends on how amazon reacts. They could reflect the real cost of shipping (we can dream) or they could figure out a way to reduce the price of some other article you buy with the books. Amazon making more money on individual sales is ok; the goal is to reduce the attractiveness of amazon vs local book shops so that they sell less (even though they make more money per sale). And yes if that makes any difference in the long term I'll be surprised. We'll see.
It's a minimum fee, and almost all independent stores that have an online presence will pay more than that for delivery to begin with.
Sending shit through the mail is expensive, if you're not a giant company like Amazon who can either cut deals with large delivery companies, or just eat the cost.
Amazon runs their own, profitable, package delivery system.
It's amazing the French government (which theoretically) sets postal rates chose to enrich Amazon and not lower postal rates for small bookstores. Remember, it's the French government that sets the postal rates.
Only in the US. They don't run their own delivery in the EU.
Amazon does have their own delivery operations outside the US. I've had quite a few things delivered by Amazon Logistics here in the UK (though it seems a bit random whether they use them or an outside courier). I don't know about France, but it's certainly not "only in the US".
The UK is no longer part of the EU :) But that's pedantry.
I would wonder how that Amazon Logistics is set up in the UK, though. I'm going to guess it's just local small delivery companies partially carrying that name.
(And anything coming from other depots like NL/BE/DE would most likely be DHL)
Yes, which is why I was objecting to the "only in the US" part - I don't know if they have operations in EU countries, but I do know that they have an operation in a non-US company. The Amazon vans are separate to any other companies. They're generally owner-operated vans under contract to Amazon (but then so are many of the "traditional" parcel companies) rather than Amazon employees. And Amazon don't always use Amazon Logistics, even for things being sold by Amazon.
I'm thinking they are trying to keep the small shops open to foot traffic.
I'm thinking they are trying to keep the small shops open to foot traffic.
Yes, that is correct. The French government has decided that people who buy books from small shops are "good" and should be subsidized, while people who buy books online are "bad" and should be taxed.
The stores make 95% of their sales from a few bestsellers, while nerds and bibliophiles find the "long tail" of obscure and technical books online. So this is an anti-nerd policy.
It also harms independent authors. Amazon will carry a book from an unknown author with low sales. A physical shop doesn't have the s
Yes, that is correct. The French government has decided that people who buy books from small shops are "good" and should be subsidized, while people who buy books online are "bad" and should be taxed.
Yes, that is correct. The French government has decided that people who buy books from small shops are "good" and should be subsidized, while people who buy books online are "bad" and should be taxed.
No, it has decided that having small shops is good and has applied a 'nudge' to promote what it sees as something good, which is common for governments to do. You can argue whether it is good, but there's no moral judgement on customers here.
What about delivery to the stores? I mean, they have to get stocked somehow?
I don't understand why lawmakers always set a specific amount. The value of the a specific amount will fluctuate based on inflation and currency exchange values. In the U.S. we have fees that remain 1.00USD from 80 years ago.
Instead, why not index it to the prime rate? CPI?
As to the law itself, seems unlikely to produce any real good for any but a few particular shops, and not for long. For better or worse, online shopping of all kinds is here to stay, and is probably the right choice for things that are mo
Instead, why not index it to the prime rate? CPI?
Instead, why not index it to the prime rate? CPI?
That would require complex math that the politician cant handle.
Are you saying you'd choose for yourself to do in store shop+delivery or require everyone to do so? I shop almost exclusively online from shops around the world. No driving, no parking, no nothing required at my end, just net, browser and credit card. Why is in person shopping valuable at all for 99% of what people buy?
Are you saying you'd choose for yourself to do in store shop+delivery or require everyone to do so?
I shop almost exclusively online from shops around the world. No driving, no parking, no nothing required at my end, just net, browser and credit card. Why is in person shopping valuable at all for 99% of what people buy?
Browsing; finding things that I didn't even know existed. Online shopping is very dull and you do it at home, mostly. I like going to a bookshop and being with people.
Browsing; finding things that I didn't even know existed.
Browsing; finding things that I didn't even know existed.
Go to a few physical bookstores, and you will see that 90% of the books are the same in each store.
I find way more books by serendipity online.
I like going to a bookshop and being with people.
I like going to a bookshop and being with people.
Good for you. But why should the government force other people to subsidize your preference?
Because math is hard, a defined number is easier to discuss.
It's not like politicians can't revisit the regulation and increase the fee at a later date.
This seems like a win for the consumer. Who doesn't want to pay more to Amazon for the same goods and service helping to increase their profits?
I feel even with the prices being levelled between the big retailers and independents most people will still go with the big retailers just becuase they have a wider range, faster processing and next day delivery.
Also less people than ever are purchasing physical books so any real impact is limited.
My wife and I buy books in physical format, to the point where we're not sure where to put them anymore. I know, anecdotal evidence...
We did donate about 400 pounds of books, kept the ones we liked...
This seems like a win for the consumer. Who doesn't want to pay more to Amazon for the same goods and service helping to increase their profits?
Those who think beyond the timescale of their two day Prime delivery, and recognize that as Amazon eats the business of bookstores that cannot cross-subsidize their shipping costs with revenue other lines of business such as durable goods, groceries, cloud services, security systems, and so forth.
Does it cost Amazon 0.01 Euro to ship a book? No? That cost differen
Ok - you got me thinking about. Now I am asking why should I care. What 'value' does the existence of traditional book stores offer again? They served a purpose - they provide a place where one could find a wider array of print media for purchase than more general retails could offer.
Amazon does that - in fact Amazon does that a lot better than book stores ever did.. I get that YOU might enjoy the experience offered by the bookstore but the market moves on and should. I mean there used to be a lot more tack shops; back everyone had horse and buggy, should we have required auto sales to include a set of ridding boots?
Simple fact is the internet and efficent parcel delivery has obsoleted specialty retail in any category where urgency isnt a major component of sales. I am not sure why we need to treat that as a 'bad thing'
Ok - you got me thinking about. Now I am asking why should I care. What 'value' does the existence of traditional book stores offer again?
Wrong question. What value does allowing a business to cross-subsidize shipping costs generate for the consumer in the long term?
I'm not going to rehash arguments that have already been made by specialists [thevalueengineers.nl], so object away.
If Amazon's bookselling is so intrinsically superior, then it can afford to charge a realistic shipping cost for its goods.
why dont you answer his question instead of telling him hes wrong? dumbass.
I did - he asked why he should care. His other supposed question presupposes that I demanded that traditional bookstores continue to exist. I didn't. I wrote only about cross-subsidies and subsidized shipping.
Also, apostrophes and capitalizing the beginning of a sentence are a thing. Dumbass anonymous coward.
> What 'value' does the existence of traditional book stores offer again?
You answered it there: "tradition". A physical place to browse books and meet actual humans, or at least keep a "French flavor" to online book stores. (Insert escargot jokes here.)
It's also a stealth form of anti-trust, making it harder for Amazon to swallow all bookstores completely.
Simple fact is the internet and efficent parcel delivery has obsoleted specialty retail in any category where urgency isnt a major component of sales.
Simple fact is the internet and efficent parcel delivery has obsoleted specialty retail in any category where urgency isnt a major component of sales.
Internet purchasing has obsoleted retail sales in commodity items. If there is a materiel difference between 2 items with the same id/description, then in-person shopping is still relevant. e.g. If you care about the difference between item A and item B, but the vendor does not -then you want to shop for yourself.
This will blow-up in the bookseller's faces, if implemented.
Amazon buys in volume, get best price for items, offers them at lower prices.
Amazon largely relies on their own delivery service, almost guaranteed to be cheaper than anything a local bookseller can use.
The â3 'shipping charge' is only a portion of the actual (average) shipping cost of â7, local bookseller's will STILL lose money per sale.
EVEN IF a local bookseller can price match Amazon, even if they can match Amazon's delivery time, it
Amazon doesn't have to pay rent on physical stores, and has their own distribution network that handles a lot of deliveries directly. They have Amazon lockers too. Either you pay for the shipping with Prime, or you wait until Amazon can bundle your item together with lots of others going to an area to keep the cost down.
Independents can't compete with any of that.
Amazon... has their own distribution network that handles a lot of deliveries directly.
You're hilarious. Their own [amazon.com] in the sense that they've "Huckleberry Finn"-ed delivery obligations?
Even then, it still costs more than 0.01 Euro to deliver a book. Allowing the subsidy just encourages market distortion and compounds anticompetitive behavior [nytimes.com].
Those who think beyond the timescale of their two day Prime delivery, and recognize that as Amazon eats the business of bookstores that cannot cross-subsidize their shipping costs with revenue other lines of business such as durable goods, groceries, cloud services, security systems, and so forth. Does it cost Amazon 0.01 Euro to ship a book? No? That cost difference is not a gift to the consumer, it's a trap.
Those who think beyond the timescale of their two day Prime delivery, and recognize that as Amazon eats the business of bookstores that cannot cross-subsidize their shipping costs with revenue other lines of business such as durable goods, groceries, cloud services, security systems, and so forth.
Does it cost Amazon 0.01 Euro to ship a book? No? That cost difference is not a gift to the consumer, it's a trap.
There were the same cries 30 years ago about Walmart making mom&pop stores extinct. "Just wait," the doomers said, "once the last mom&pop is closed, Walmart will jack up the prices."
Amazon found a way to more efficiently distribute books. The consumer wins by paying less, having more money available to spend elsewhere. For the same price as the local shop, you can buy the book on Amazon plus a coffee. The customer wins, Amazon wins, the local coffee shop wins.
There were the same cries 30 years ago about Walmart making mom&pop stores extinct. "Just wait," the doomers said, "once the last mom&pop is closed, Walmart will jack up the prices."
Oh, it has, [ilsr.org], you're just secure in your ignorance [justia.com].
This seems like a win for the consumer. Who doesn't want to pay more to Amazon for the same goods and service helping to increase their profits? I feel even with the prices being levelled between the big retailers and independents most people will still go with the big retailers just becuase they have a wider range, faster processing and next day delivery. Also less people than ever are purchasing physical books so any real impact is limited. You like paying more money than necessary for an item? Sucker.
This seems like a win for the consumer. Who doesn't want to pay more to Amazon for the same goods and service helping to increase their profits? I feel even with the prices being levelled between the big retailers and independents most people will still go with the big retailers just becuase they have a wider range, faster processing and next day delivery. Also less people than ever are purchasing physical books so any real impact is limited.
This seems like a win for the consumer. Who doesn't want to pay more to Amazon for the same goods and service helping to increase their profits?
I feel even with the prices being levelled between the big retailers and independents most people will still go with the big retailers just becuase they have a wider range, faster processing and next day delivery.
Also less people than ever are purchasing physical books so any real impact is limited.
You like paying more money than necessary for an item? Sucker.
Lots of people buy physical books:
Led by the fiction categories, unit sales of print books rose 8.9% in 2021 over 2020 at outlets that report to NPD BookScan. Units sold were 825.7 million last year, up from 757.9 million in 2020. BookScan captures approximately 85% of all print sales. In 2020, unit sales were up 8.2% over 2019, which saw 693.7 million print units sold.
https://www.publishersweekly.c... [publishersweekly.com]. I like the thought of Amazon bankrupting every other seller out there and establishing a monopoly (whic
This seems like a win to Amazon - they'll collect additional revenue off every book sale/transaction and STILL be cheaper than the local book store that pays more for shipping.
Amazon will still be cheaper, because a) based on volume discounts, Amazon will be cheaper, and b) local booksellers can't "eat" â4/shipment if they only collect â3 toward a â7 avg shipping cost.
Amazon will still get the bulk of book sales AND will now collect â3 in 'extra revenue' per book sale - boy, France reall
Given a choice between doing business with A, which makes it on its own, and B, which requires a govt support, at the same price, a lot of people will go with A because "fuck the govt!"
If the online giants want to continue at that price point I'm sure they'll find a way to knock the delivery price off of the book price, charge the delivery and it will come out the same
What the local bookstores need is for people to come in and generate foot traffic, impulse buys etc. I don't see this measure improving that much. The other local stores have the same needs. Maybe they should get together and have a grant from the French government to somehow make coming into town to shop the various stores
small industries like cd, cheese and cracker or dildo shops This made me laugh, I immediately thought "Doing it wrong!"
small industries like cd, cheese and cracker or dildo shops
This made me laugh, I immediately thought "Doing it wrong!"
This made me laugh, I immediately thought "Doing it wrong!"
...we do the opposite. [usps.com] Pound for pound, Media Mail makes it much cheaper to ship a book than a bag of hammers.
If implemented, Amazon will still be the cheapest option, and will likely sell the same number of books, only now the French Govt is forcing customers to give Amazon 3 euros extra, making Amazon's book sales in France profoundly more profitable!
The US media mail model is what's needed, not this fee.
The end result is local bookstores will stop shipping books (too expensive), and Amazon, who was already profitable without the 3 euro fee, will sell just as many (or more) books as before, AND collect a
only now the French Govt is forcing customers to give Amazon 3 euros extra, making Amazon's book sales in France profoundly more profitable!
If Amazon were smart they would raise it to 10 euros, even 100! Think of the profits!
After they run the competition out of business, this is exactly what tends to happen.
We all know the delivery fee will just be deducted from the normal price with free delivery!
We all know the delivery fee will just be deducted from the normal price with free delivery!
Nope. It is already illegal in France to sell a new book for less than 95% of the MSRP.
It is also illegal in France to sell a new book as "used".
How long does someone have to look at a book before it is considered "used" ?
Most likely they define it by whether the book has already been sold at retail.
No. Amazon will keep prices the same and pocket the extra 3 euros.
Amazon book sales are profitable now, and their prices are lower than local stores, adding the 3 euro "fee" adds 3 euros of pure profit to Amazon while appearing to help local book sellers slightly cut their losses on book shipments. The local bookseller's price will always be equal to or more tgan Amazon's price, their delivery will always be slower, and the 3 euros will only lower the losses per shipped book order for the local stores - it
France seems to have an odd fixation on fighting industry innovation. If the free market has found a cheaper (and therefore more efficient) way to meet a consumer demand- why work to fight it?
Seems odd for a government to race to protect horse buggy business when people are buying cars...
If the free market has found a cheaper
If the free market has found a cheaper
You think Amazon operates in a free market? Oooh, boy.
It was called Minitel [wikipedia.org].
The French government's efforts to protect it from competition resulted in crippling barriers to innovation and is one reason France has so few tech companies today.
Governments aren't very good at "picking winners," but the French seem to be impervious to that economics lesson.
I'm reminded of the protests when France raised the retirement age [cbsnews.com] back in 2010. Right at the time, I was on vacation in Paris, which made for a lot of memorable experiences.
The one thing I recall being told by a Parisienne is that "France is France, you don't try to figure it out."
I'm old I guess, but the weight of physical books has gotten burdensome over the years. My wrists just get tired too fast especially with large hardbound books. So I've switched to digital books and a light reader. The fine article didn't make clear what the impact would be when there is no real shipping cost at all as with a digital book. This is the real problem that is faced by local book shops - the digital book. Shipping costs simply don't matter.
Amazon also offers thousands of digital kindle books co
Any that I buy I quickly read anyway, so if the kindle eco-system blows up, I've still gotten the good out of any book I've purchased. If the free ones disappear, I won't be happy, but I won't be out anything either. And my kids will have far fewer books to dispose of when I die.
Any that I buy I quickly read anyway, so if the kindle eco-system blows up, I've still gotten the good out of any book I've purchased. If the free ones disappear, I won't be happy, but I won't be out anything either. And my kids will have far fewer books to dispose of when I die.
When I owned around 50 books, and some quite expensive, I imagine one day giving them my children. Then when I had over around 200 books, I started having trouble finding room to put them, most when into obscure corners where they became forgotten. I have no idea how many paper books I had when I started buying ebook from Amazon, but by that time I already had no illusion about my children wanting any of my books. Maybe there is a few they might want to read, but even if I remember I owned one, the e
Kids can surprise you. They didn't pay much attention to my collection of books all the time they lived at home. Now that they are on their own, they've started reading a few I thought might be of interest to them and found they actually liked them and went ahead and read the whole series. You just never now. And you can always make a kid's profile if they have a reader and move your digital books to that profile for a bit if they want to read one.
I have six bookcases that are closed and a couple of open o
I guess that would be up to the lawyers for the authors and the bankruptcy court depending on their contract with the defunct company. The device IP is independent of their copyright of the source material. Most, I would think, would be able to turn to other publishers during their lifetime. There's always Project Gutenberg after copyright elapses. Not all readers delete content just because you've read it so even if the provider died, it would still be on the electronic device for the duration of device li
...instead of wiping out copyright and limiting to 10 years after first publication and lowing prices and supporting print-on-demand (for school texts, out-of-print books, etc.) they have decided to make the already expensive books (remember that the author does NOT receive money at all in comparison) even more expensive, limiting even more the people to access knowledge.
...instead of wiping out copyright and limiting to 10 years after first publication and lowing prices and supporting print-on-demand (for school texts, out-of-print books, etc.)
...instead of wiping out copyright and limiting to 10 years after first publication and lowing prices and supporting print-on-demand (for school texts, out-of-print books, etc.)
Those things are set internationally, by-and-large and France is in no position to go it alone on that.
Amazon will simply stop claiming that the shipping is "free." After all, members pay an annual membership fee to cover shipping costs.
At the very least, they would be able to "allocate" $3 of the Prime Membership fee to each order up until the total is used up.
However, Amazon knows that $3/order is a windfall for them if they don't fight it. However, the terms of the Prime Membership likely don't have provisions to increase the shipping charge so they will have to compensate members for their breach of co
so now the price just gets dropped by 3 euros if shipping address is france. 10E for the book, free shipping to Germany, or 7E with 3E for shipping to France makes no difference to Amazon.
Inflating the price and letting online stores keep a larger profit margin isn't the same as protecting independent book stores.
The natural state of man is Hobbesian. Or, in Europe, it is Communism. Those are the only two attractors in that dynamical system. The best you can hope for is chaos.
But why couldn't the local shop just buy the book on Amazon for the customer (behind the scenes) and have Amazon ship it for free? Amazon's book price is probably lower anyway and the local shop can keep the difference and make some profit.
The local shop could also probably reduce their duplicates inventory as well and save costs there. They could still be there for the walk in traffic who enjoy being in a bookstore.
The big online shops are still paying for shipping, it's just now bundled into the sale price. If they must itemize the fee, they can certainly lower the sale price by the amount of the shipping fee. Then, their list price looks lower than the small shops, and what exactly was gained?
There may be more comments in this discussion. Without JavaScript enabled, you might want to turn on Classic Discussion System in your preferences instead.
Australia Phones Cyber-Attack Exposes Personal Data
Meta Sued For Skirting Apple Privacy Rules To Snoop On Users
Make it right before you make it faster.